Wednesday, May 03, 2006

New Topic: Immigration

Guys, we have to get over that last post...

So, Immigration...

At a church gathering last night, several people were sharing their views that "well, if you're illegal, you shouldn't be here". He then went on to say that he even heard some of these "illegals" saying they are no different then the pilgrims...While there may be differences, this man's objection was on the grounds that "now their are laws". I just hang my head at the stupidity of these I need to spell this out? Jonny could do it

Go team Jesus!


At 5/03/2006 4:56 PM, Blogger Joey said...

people fleeing poverty and injustice
european settlers did worse things than break laws......then end

At 5/03/2006 6:22 PM, Blogger Dusty said...

ya, where does genocide fit in? Apparently, it was a good thing for us that Native Americans had no laws against foreign rape and pillaging...

At 5/03/2006 9:41 PM, Blogger Joni said...

Dusty, I feel like you missed a golden opportunity to declare that you were in the country illegally and bolt from the room weeping. Too bad. Not that you should make a habit of proclaiming things that are patently false during church gatherings, but it sounds like other folks were doing it.... Although, in good conscience I should stick up for the Pilgrims. They can hardly be equated with conquistadors or other empire-minded colonists. And I'm pretty sure there wasn't a lot of Pilgrim rape happening, either foreign or domestic.

At 5/04/2006 6:57 AM, Blogger PopePotsie said...

Ah, midwesterners. I have missed you. Speaking of inappropriate and self-righteous references to pilgrims and American Indians, this is slightly irrelevant, but as I was studying for my Scottish Archaeology exam yesterday, I came upon this essay on the Scottish clan clearings in the Highlands and how they were forced from their homes, etc., another reminder of how the British like to stick it to the Americans whenever possible. "This is a very close reminder," the essay wrote, "of what the United States did to the Indian Nations." Oh, Brits- it's the United States that forced the American Indians out, eh? Because good old Britain was nothing but civilized to both American Indians and Indian Indians.

At 5/04/2006 5:39 PM, Blogger Dan Baker said...

I've got this whole thing figured out!!

We just need to be really quiet, and not say a word about it and eventually it will go away. Then in 20-30 years we'll say how much we wish we would have done.

Or I know

We could just keep saying that we can't do anything till we have had a chance to publish 25 differetn books on our theological views of the topic before we can be sure how to act.

Aren't you glad I'm so smart!!

The real question, how does God want us to balance justice with mercy?...

At 5/06/2006 10:29 AM, Blogger Liza said...

A lot of you guys are probably more familiar with liberation theology than I am, but I'll try to talk about it a little nonetheless. (I think) that this is why Christianity is/has remained so huge in South America, due to Catholic liberation theologians. Basically the idea is that God is always on the side of the oppressed, downtrodden, and poor.
Looking at our own situation, kinda makes Dusty's church not only dumb but incorrect in assuming (once again, as most American churches are wont to do) that God naturally favors our ideas, our ideologies, and our laws.
That being said, immigration poses a real economic problem nonetheless. How do we fix this? I don't know. Raise the value of the peso so that people aren't trying to come over here to work? Raise the standard of living for our own national poor, which could also easily fit into the liberation theology mindset (as was evidenced by the gross class split revealed in the hurricane Katrine debacle)? Every time I think I even have a statement (not daring to approach an answer) I just keep finding more questions.
What do ya'll think? Is liberation theology correct? Relevant for this issue? Determinative in how the United States churches at large should interact with illegals?


At 5/06/2006 12:42 PM, Blogger Ryan 1 said...

First, it depends on what brand of liberation theology we're referring to here. In more extreme cases, God favors the poor and oppressed so they should rise up and kill lots of people so they don't have to be oppressed. This is the brand that evangelicals like to point out so that they don't have to deal with how liberationism is so right most of the time. On the more balanced end, God favors the poor and oppressed (read the Bible, it's in there a lot) so we rich bastards should use our crazy amount of resources to also help the poor and oppressed.

Also, for immigration, I went to the march/rally here in Denver and it was so freaking sweet. There were 75,000 people and we had great fun. Plus, there were only 50 people protesting the march. I thought there would be a lot more since native Coloradans can be real bastards (of course they forget to remember how most native Coloradans speak Spanish and have Hispanic roots because Colorado used to be Mexico. It's funny how selective memory works so well). Cause here's the thing. In Denver, it's not as much about "illegal" immigrants anymore as it is a race war between Hispanic people and ignorant Euro-Americans.

Ultimately, that may be all I have to add. The solidarity between so many different backgrounds of people was really amazing and made me cry a lot.

Finally, I think that too often american christians hope that the government will take care of the poor and oppressed for us because we're a christian nation right? If we happen to crack open the ole' bible, we realize this thinking is bullshit and realize that it is our personal responsibility as the church of Christ to take care of people in need. This takes shape in ways such as Joshua Station, an old hotel that Mile High Missions bought and knowingly houses "illegal" immigrants and helps them find jobs and food. That's how we respond to this. We need to stop looking to the government to advance the Kingdom of God. That's our job.

At 5/06/2006 1:42 PM, Blogger Jeff BBz said...

The real problem (okay I can't say that because there are a multitude) is that it is illegal for certain people to enter our country. Our immigration quota is ridiculously low, and favors people from richer nations/and or richer people from the nations we think we are better than. That being said, even for people that wish to come here short term, are pretty well off, and have no reason to run away and never leave once they get here or even do anything we might not want them too, the process for doing so is lengthy, difficult, inane, and possibly evil. This is merely compounded by our national cockiness that we believe america to be the most advanced and wonderful place in the world, which everyone dreams of entering and those that don't want to destroy our freedom because they are jealous or insane. That someone might want to not be here is unimaginable.

Visas, immigration, passports, and all that nonsense are nothing more than forms of control and manipulation. This is not merely true for the way the US handles things but for every country.

As Christians, that we think we actually own a certain location on the earth is ridiculous. As Christians, the fact that we value certain people over other people is sinful. As Christians, if we ever say anything similar to, "they are taking our jobs" we are sinful, are racist, are worried about ourselves more than "the other." (however big and broad that is and why I would care about someone I don't know from montana over someone i don't know from mexico, is unclear, insane, racist, nationalist, sinful, foolish).

There are arguements to be made that immigrants are good for the economy, are not taking our jobs, are taking the bad ones, are not creating crime, are not destroying our way of life, are not eroding the beautiful imperal language of english (If english was good enough for jesus...)(Not that spanish is not an imperial language...), but these are beside the point.

Even if they were doing all these terrible things (they are not), as Christians, who love their neighbors, who freely bear the burden of others, we do not, should not, can not, choose to hate them, expel them, keep them from entry to our communities and lives and this big ass stolen peice of land we think we have a claim on.

We have placed our country and the government of humanity, of earth, before our christian identity and the government of heaven. This might be called Idolatry. Or you could just call it stupid as hell.

That we think other wise, and that we don't know how to respond, that most of us don't know any "illegal" immigrants, all point to corrosion of the truth and a misguidance/failing of the church. That the church has not gotten in front of this and rebuked ourselves and this nation shows once again that our hearts and wallets are elsewhere, probably on ourselves.

They are not Aliens, They are not Criminals, They are human beings, They are children of God.


Post a Comment

<< Home